just thought id make a post outlining the sump mods i did to version 2 of my engine...*

thanks go out to Jason @ JMR fabrications for the time and effort spent working with some pain-in-the-ass ideas and designs, and actually helping bring them into reality!



*...not that i believe that there was an oil surge issue underlying the previous bearing failure, but just given that bit of extra time this time around, we had the opportunity to tweak a few things and improve of the existing designs.

up straight - the toyota pan design isnt half bad out of the factory. there isnt 100's of hp to be had here like the old iron block v8 books love to talk about. but it isnt perfect, and theres some things to be done given a bit of time with it.

first up, the pump pickup sits a mile off the sump floor. something in the realm of 7-8mm id say. i spaced my pickup mounts off from the bottom of the block about 3-4mm, leaving about 4mm of clearance from sump to pickup. now as a precautionary aside - its worth noting toyota pans have channels ribbed front to back in the steel belly, so in the unlikely even that you smash the sump into a ripple-strip and shove it up against the pickup, it wont suck flat and surge (you hope!)



secondly, the oil returns from the head are down the outside walls of the block, and generally empty into the sump below the level of the bulk of the rotating assembly. there's some small guides built into the alloy pan to keep this return oil away from being swept into the crank windage but its a bit half hearted. we simply measured up how much free space we had and extended both the height and length of the guides to keep the oil on course to the pan.





thirdly, our windage tray and crank scraper! this was fun to design and make. basically a sandwich assembly between the block and the alloy half of the sump. this was the prototype design that we continued working with, and ended up installing...the only issue is that the leading conrod per journal has a different swept profile (at the scraper mounting location) which i didnt allow for in this design. the scraper face, as a result, is around 7-8mm of so from this leading conrod (see pics), and it really requires its own face on the scraper for improved efficiency. otherwise the clearance to the counterweights and the trailing conrod is spot-on at 1.5mm (60thou)









built into the scraper was a unidirectional windage tray made of fine pressed steel mesh. half designed, half by good luck, the clearance of the mesh to the crank starts off wide, gets closest near BDC (4-5mm), then widens back out again as the crank approaches the scraper lip. these changing clearances might just act to change the pressure in the windage cloud enough to encourage a low pressure expansion just prior to the scraper lip, increasing its effectiveness.







the sump pan itself was attacked a few ways. the first was adding around 500-700ml volume through side wings, and then second was controlling this volume with trapdoors. the trapdoors are located around 25mm from either side of the pickup, and hit the pickup at full excursion giving a positive stop to their range of motion (ie cant flip up and jam open). the tops of the trapdoored sections each have an unsealed roof to allow overflow and wayward drainback to occur unhindered... the idea though, would be that most drainback would be deflected down into the centre section with the pickup







we tested the system out with plain old tap water, and the trapdoors and clearances are more than perfectly effective in keeping a large volume/depth of oil in the pickup zone even under quite violent fluid motion and at varying low levels of fluid capacity

thats all ive got pics for at the moment. the only other things worth mentioning are: we welded a small strip of steel reo on the outside leading edge of the sump as a bit of a bashgurad, and also, note that if you sandwich a 1.2mm steel plate then the lower 4 bellhousing mounting bolts will be shifted out 1.2mm also... thus the 4 lower holes in the bellhousing will need to be slotted to accomodate! (thanks mos!)

hope thats interesting to someone!

cheers
ed

Wow nice read. Just a quick question why didn't you just go for a dry sump? I can't imagine the work you had done was cheap. When do you think the new engine will be in and running? Can't wait to see it all done

BTW that scraper and mesh design looks awesome

thats for the next version of this engine. i just wasnt prepared to make the jump to dry sump yet, and wanted to get the wet sump working as best as possible for as long as possible

dry sump will come one day, but just not on this engine at this time...

cheers
ed

That's fair enough. Is this one going to be basically the same as the last one but thought out a little differently? Whats the power goal for this build? Still revving to 9.3k? haha.

Did you ever work out what killed the last engine? I've been researching the nissan VH41 and VK45 engines for a hopeful project in a year or two time. Not gonna kid myself it ain't happening soon haha.

this engine is basically the same as the last, but hopefully with a more useable intake cam (not one that wants to go to 11k rpm) power goal remains in the low 300rwkw range but with better midrange. rev cut will still be about 9500 but it depends on the power band. we'll see

update on the sump itself - we were still having issues with surge control with that sump baffle design, so weve pulled it all apart and gone for a complete remae of the baffle design

we remade the trapdoors that basically completely seal when shut now, theyre also lighter and swing open more easily. we put some curved vanes into various areas of the belly that dierct flow towards the pickup during various dynamic g-forces, and we also put some top baffles in just below the roof/windage tray that defelects oil back twards the centre of the pan during large movements of oil...

... water test with anything from 1/4 full to overfilled was 200% improved over the last design with the central pickup section remaining filled, and no water made its way out of the sump at all. its pretty cool to slosh this thing violently around and see the oil remain pretty stable, and not only that, but see the central zone fill to 75% capacity and yet the side wings sit at barely 0.5cm deep... and it all stays that way, its cool

pics later tonight

cheers
ed

quick water test at 3/4 capacity today suggests about 6sec sustained 1G (45deg) oil control (not taking into account oil return to sump from crank/heads etc)

Did you take into account the viscosity difference between the water and oil?

agghh i give up

this is driving me crazy. im still getting horrible oil surge at even low speeds such as 30kmh if i turn a regular 90deg bend such as in a suburban street!!

we used this most recent design on damien's sump and from what ive heard it did a round down at Phillip Island without an issue, but i cant drive around the neighbourhood without disturbingly low oil pressures mid corner?!! wtf could be causing this?

ive taken the crank scraper out, thinking it could be a problem. not sure how or why, just that it was new, and im trying to delete variables. no difference.

sump is full of oil, accusump is disabled, hot idle is 25-30psi, hot high rpm is 75-80psi. i still get the whacky momentary drop in oil pressure when you smash WOT (drops by about 15psi for 2 sec or so)

dry sump is half finished for the new block, but id like to get this current block atleast running semi reliably! it make heaps of noise, does great skids, and goes fast in a straight line, but t just wont handle a corner?

and ideas?

Time to build drag car?

Pressures sound fine...bang on what i get.

Piss off your vac extraction system and just rely on the stock venting to test.

If still no good then dodgy pressure sender/gauge? sad oil pump?

Does it surge left and right handers?

I was thinking along the same lines, i also have another theory but i wouldn't have the patients to try explain it via keyboard, i'll pm you my number and we can talk about it

thanks mate, prob a bit late now, but ill give you a ring tomorrow (today/tuesday?) sometime

that said, we did a bit of testing tonight, and weve got a theory... summarised by the general notion that: the engine, when running, has a fuckload of oil everywhere, except in the sump and it simply seems that the engine needs a bigger oil capacity (well, more than 6L or so it has at present)

basically, we checked the oil level in the sump (cold in the garage) tonight following yesterdays run, hmmm only half full. seems we lost a bit to the accusump before disabling it, plus a few hundred mls in the catch can. so, we completely removed the accusump, capped the fittings, filled the sump to F on the dipstick (about 2L extra, a total of around 6L ciculating volume at this stage) and went for a quick burn. surge reduced but not gone. 10mins later we check the level again, atleast 1-1.5cm down from F on the stick. nothing new in the catch can, no leaks. so it must be distributed around the engine somewhere... so we top the sump up so it reads full again (a further 1L extra, 7 litres total).

we then drove 250m up the road to get some fuel, and coming back to the car, notice that the sump belly is weeping at the join to the alloy pan, drip drip drip... the sump is obvioulsy way full now funnily enough though, when we got the girl rolling with this ump level, it seems the surge is noticeably reduced. difficult to tell if we got rid of it altogether due to whats outlined below:

problem... with that higher resting oil level, the crankcase breather is venting oil into the catchcan, taking excess oil out of the circulating volume until the base level drops again. it seems the system can only take about 6.5L of oil (total) before purging. it would appear that at some time/circumstance in operating conditions, theres just a so much oil around the engine, and around the crankcase (and not in the sump belly), some of it wants to get out the crankcase breather line... simple solution, remove and cap the crank breather. then we'll see what a full 7 litres does when it distributes itself around the engine without fear of the crank breather allowing any to overflow out to the can. see if that keeps the pickup in the sump happy?

does that sound plausible?

There is something a miss to state the obvious . I am running a 1uzfe TT in a mkiv Track car.
Std oiling system with a moroso accumulator ,std bearing clearance, oil cooler and 10w40 oil. I run std oil level plus 3lts.After hundreds of laps have had no oiling problems .No oil in the catch can .

yeah, i think its going to come back to the wide bearing clearances, compounded by the big rpm. maybe overdid it on the bearings? 3thou on the mains is a touch wide without a better pump, i can say that much, probably stick to 2.5thou on the std oiler imho

i think one thing that caught my attention today was a comment from one/some of the drag car engine builders that justin was talking to... that yes, crankcase vacuum is a great thing, but not cam/head vacuum. and moreso, that a strong vacuum acting on the heads can/will fuckup the oil outflow and drainback holding more oil out of the pan during operating conditions

what interests me is to vent to atmo the two cam cover breathers, and still keep the crankcase breather plugged into the exhaust extraction system. that way we get a small partial vacuum in the crankcase, but also draw air/oil flow down from the heads, actively assisting oil return to the sump...

will be so funny if thats the problem and i hit lindenup again to modify the catch can! again....lol

i dropped the sump again today and noted a couple of possible issues..

firstly - the oil pickup 'mouth' is about 105mm in dia... its HUGE. now i checked the clearances, and even though its only 5-6mm off the floor, it does stretch from one side of the central bowl area, to the other. (*note - this is a different pickup style to the one in the last engine, though still just athe oem pickup)

its conceivable that when the oil does move quickly around in the central bowl, that one edge of this pickup can 'just' become uncovered. its not helped by the possible second issue outlined below either...

... the second issue being that with oil (not water) in the pan, the trapdoors seal flush so well, that a degree of surface tension 'suction' needs to be overcome for the doors to release from their closed position against the divider wall to swing open. with the 50w oil in there, the doors do actually 'suck down' onto the bowl wall quite tightly and it takes a little bit of momentum/forrce to open them. sure, they do open ok, and they move very very freely, but not without a bit of delay in response to the oil motion...

so those two things combined, its possible that as oil moves quickly around the central bowl, theres a delay in fresh oil moving in from the wings through the trap doors, and a small dry spot can 'just' devellop under the very peripheral lip of the oil pickup

so!

ive bent a small deflection into the bowl wall so that the mating surface of the trap door is no longer dead flush, and the oil surface tension has a focal area to 'peel away' from. (like lifting the very edge of a suction cap). that seems to have made the trapdoor 'beak-away' much more freely, though it does allow a small amount of back-leakage also, certainly not heaps.

im also going to try closing down the face of the pickup, such that it can only draw oil up from a smaller central zone about 60mm wide (though nearly the whole original mesh area will still be available for straining the oil). this 20mm will make the likelyhood of uncovering the edge of the pickup zone far less likely.

fingers crossed these two things together work to starve off this goddamn surge!

and so!

we made a 100mm dia steel disc, cut a 57mm hole in it, coned it slightly in the press, and voila! we'll see what this sucker does!





if you look carefully, the pickup zone resides between 2 ridges pressed into the steel pan (and straddles the central ridge. the lowest point of the pickup is obvioulsy over this central ridge, and measures about 4mm. its about 8mm clearance however, from the deeper zones between ridges on either side of centre.

well, first impressions are that weve fixed the surging?

im not 100% as i havent taken it for a decent run yet, but its a thousand times better just around the local streets at various rpms and g forces...

...and thats without the accusump installed at all

You conspicuously fail to mention the explosion...

I think we need to hear more about this forementioned explosion....

yes, my ears are still ringing...

remind me to take a photo of the charring in the garage on sunday...

This doesnt sound good....

Looks at calender - looks at computer, taps foot....

exploding exhaust pipe following a relay failure on the efi main circuit resulting in an exhaust full of fuel and no ignition source. followed by a 5 min delay fixing the relay, and the subsequent volatile vapour mix meeting mr flame front... dead set my ears were ringing for minutes, at least we managed to de-coke the exhaust pipes...

Ed,
Re oiling problem. Have just got the twin supercharged 2uzfe up and running.I have come up against your problem. Catch can full of oil.... new engine . After running the 1uzfe tt for a couple of years and having no problems with oil control it appears the issue is with the late model head design .Too much oil in the heads.By the way Twin supercharged short stroke 2uzfe six speed supra = a good drive.

I have been watching these surge issues that Ed has been having to try and avoid it in mine (I also have a VVTi engine)

My Ford V8 would fill the rocker covers up with oil at high revs.

The one thing I was thinking for the UZ was to put some fittings and hose from the cam blanks on each bank at the back of the head to the sump to act as drains from the head.

Dass some details and pics of said beast?

couple of pics and details on lextreme

Ed, I have a couple of counter intuitive modifications you may try for the hell of it. I come from the rotary community and have done some interesting things with system on a completely stock pump to achieve pressures that consistently over run my gauge anything over idle (not necessarily good I know)

Anyway, the main thing that I have done on suggestion from a former road racer/ engine builder is to eliminate the pickup screen. The thought behind such a mod is to eliminate oil foaming as its entering the pump. This will eliminate a large portion of pumping losses by trying to pump (compress) air into the oil system. Another possible thing to try in leau (sp?) of the screen elimination would be to run a straight weight race oil. They have less of a tenancy to foam. The other thing is simple and I haven't seen if this is already done to the stock pickup. Radius the entry of the oil pickup. Basically create a bellmouth on the entry of the pickup tube by either brazing a washer onto the end, or do like I did and attack it with a ball peen hammer till it looks like a trumpet.
I do realize that these things can sound rather crazy and I don't blame you if you don't want to try. I have had a motor running on the street in my rx7 for over 2 years with these mods. The results were that the pump regularly overruns the regulator at anything over idle, and when cold at idle or above. We're talking 105psi cold idle pressure and ~130psi anything over 2500rpm cold or hot, and 60psi hot idle pressure. Keep in mind this is a new untouched oil pump running standard gearing. My regulator is set at 90psi.

Sorry to ramble a bit, but I figured you could take this information and do what you like. If you'd like I can give you a link to the place where I got the idea to do these things. Some are rotary specific, others are very general.

reguards
Anthony